I do not mean to say she isn't a fantastic and gifted mare. All I'm suggesting is in my opinion her name simply doesn't belong in the group of horses mentioned in this thread...not yet anyway. Her accomplisments are amazing and nothing can detract. to be considered great among all horses, I just happen to believe she needs to do more. I hope she does.

Doesn't belong in the group mentioned?

Last year I felt the same way and I am no fan of California racing. I even thought RA deserved HOY over her. I grew up watching the great horses of the 70's, I am not that easily impressed and probably a bit too cynical. But, she has won me over. She has displayed as much class as any animal I have ever seen, John Henry included. Smitty takes her 12 wide most of the time and she still wins. She is all class.

17-0 is out of this world. The horses she has beaten have been champions. She deserves to be in any conversation as one of the best of her era, if not the best.

You don't have to make a case to me for why you believe her to be great. That's what you think, I just don't agree that she belongs in that company. We have different opinions and our subjective beliefs can both be true.

Zenyatta is one of the greatest mares to ever live, and might end up the best ever. I grew up in the '70s, so Secretariat,Spectacular Bid,Seattle Slew,Affirmed,Alydar, and Ruffian will always be in their own league to me.

Slew and Ruffian were my horses. I never thought any horse would come close. I don't think it matters where she runs. she just happens to be based in California. The past always looks better than the present especially if you're no longer in your 20s and things are starting to slow down and fall out or off
Zenyatta's a special horse and she deserves the same respect. She'll never run 83 times like John Henry but that's not saying she couldn't. She's a valuable mare and this is business. John Henry and Forego were geldings. Their worth was in racing not breeding. It's apples to oranges. If Ruffian would have lived her last race would have probably been her last and it would have been off to the breeding shed. This mare is one smart horse and all heart. She does what she needs to do to win and does it with style

I wasn't around in 1941 but my father told me that WHIRLAWAY was something to see. The horse could run but loved the outside rail and kicked in his speed when "he" felt like it. Trainer Ben Jones put just a right side blink on him in an effort to get his eye off the outside.

A couple of days before the Derby WHIRLAWAY went second in the Derby Trial.

On Derby Day WHIRLAWAY was drilled a 48 half at dawn.

Later that afternoon that horse set a record that lasted until SECRETARIAT - 32 years.

The '41 Preakness was maybe the best race. WHIRLAWAY damn near refused and was away like a slug. He spotted the field almost ten lengths on the first turn. Ed Arcaro always said that he knew he had tons of horse and that being way behind wasn't a big deal except for his payday. Off the first turn WHIRLAWAY wanted to run. Arcaro said to the day he died that he couldn't let WHIRLAWAY circle the field, the goddamn horse could bolt and jump the fence - he decided to urge his mount with a right arm and hand along his head to split horses and just hand ride him along the inside. The horse begins to catch up to split horse and goes inside of runners and outside of them to catch the first flight.

Going into the second turn you see WHIRLAWAY explode out of the pack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6o-5TR0m5N8

In none of his TC races was WHIRLAWAY ever put to the whip by Ed Arcaro.

Arcaro always said that his mount CITATION in 1948 was the best ever but old farts, young farts and wannabee farts can still discuss the runners of yesteryear.

http://cristblog.drf.com/crist/


Creme de les Femmes
Amid recent discussions of the Racing Hall of Fame and Zenyatta's place in the racing pantheon, I thought it would be fun to line up the best fillies and mares of the modern era, which for this exercise I defined as beginning in 1971.

The choice of that year was not entirely arbitrary: That was the first year of Eclipse Awards, and 1972 saw the beginning of a formal graded-stakes program, two (albeit imperfect) systems that at least allow us to quantify championships and top-class victories. So Shuvee is the last one in, since 1971 (when she won her second Jockey Club Gold Cup) was her final year on the track, while Ta Wee is not listed only because she ran her last race in 1970.

I limited the field to fillies who have made at least one start in North America, and automatically included all who met the following criteria: Horse of the Year winners; any who have already been inducted into the Hall of Fame; and any who won more than one Eclipse Award. I also included seven who have raced within the last five years and thus are not yet eligible for the Hall but will receive serious consideration, and the handful that I believe deserve induction who are still on the outside amid the ongoing glut of deserving nominees.

The list below is 38 deep, and there were plenty of worthy contenders to round it up to 40 or 50. I don't think I've missed any realistic candidates for anyone's top 10 or 20, though I'm sure you'll tell me if I have.

(And please note these fillies and mares are listed only in reverse chronological order of when they began their careers, not in any order of ranking or preference. Also, HOTY=Horse of the Year; HOF=year inducted into Hall of Fame; CA/KY/NY columns refer to number of career starts made in California, Kentucky and New York.)



Honorable mention among the more than 100 female champions of this era who are not listed above include, at the very least, these 10: Estrapade, Hollywood Wildcat, It's In The Air, Landaluce, Pebbles, Royal Heroine, Safely Kept, Turkish Trousers, What a Summer and Xtra Heat.

A few notes and observations:

--Bayakoa's 13 Grade 1 victories include one in Argentina and 12 in North America. Zenyatta (11) and Goldikova (9) have a realistic chance of challenging that mark before their careers are over. Goldikova has six Grade 1 victories vs. males, as opposed to three for Rachel Alexandra and one each for Bayakoa and Zenyatta. All Along won four Grade 1's against males -- all in a six-week span in October-November of 1983.

--One problem with counting up Grade 1's is that the status of so many races has changed over the years. Azeri won 11 Grade 1's but also won two Clement Hirsches and one Lady's Secret when they were Grade 2's. Zenyatta won two Lady's Secrets when they were Grade 1's, and won a Grade 2 Hirsch in 2008 and a Grade 1 Hirsch in 2009. Bayakoa had the good sense to win the Apple Blossom when it was a Grade 1 in 1989 and lose it when it was a Grade 2 in 1990 and 1991, and to lose the Santa Maria when it was a Grade 2 in 1989 and win it when it was a Grade 1 in 1990.

--The fillies on the list with the fewest Grade 1's are the two who won the Kentucky Derby: Genuine Risk, whose only other Grade 1 victory was the Ruffian, and Winning Colors, who won the Santa Anita Oaks and Santa Anita Derby before the roses (and who ran two terrific seconds to Personal Ensign, in the Maskette and BC Distaff.) Genuine Risks's and Winning's Colors's inductions into the Hall of Fame are why I've listed Rags to Riches as a Hall possibility -- she won four Grade 1's to Genuine Risk's two, and one can reasonably argue that beating Curlin in the Belmont is as much of an achievement as beating Rumbo in the Kentucky Derby.

--The only filly on the list without an Eclipse Award is Bold 'n 'Determined, runner-up to Genuine Risk in the balloting for champion 3-year-old filly title in 1980 despite winning seven Grade 1 races that year. Bold 'n Determined was elected to the Hall of Fame 17 years later, and it appears to me that she and Alydar are the only HOF inductees who have raced since 1971 who never won a divisional championship.

--Under the new Hall of Fame rules instituted this year, there can be up to four new inductees each year from across all four categories (Contemporary Male, Contemporary Female, Trainer, Jockey) rather than a mandated one from each group as in the past. That may help ease the logjam among contemporary fillies, though this year the voters went for only one (Azeri). But with Ashado, Ouija Board, Indian Blessing, Rags to Riches, Goldikova, Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta all becoming eligible over the next five or six years, it's going to be tough for the five on the list above who aren't in yet -- Heavenly Prize, Life's Magic, Open Mind, Riboletta and Sky Beauty -- to make the cut.

--One parochial footnote: With the exception of Miesque and Goldikova, who made only two American starts each in Breeders' Cup Miles, only one filly on the list has never raced in New York. One guess, no peeking. Twelve never raced in California, and seven never raced in Kentucky.